WTB: 31’ or 33’ Camper
 

I was never a huge camper, but my kids are turning out to be and constantly asking us to go. The tents work but I’m ready for a camper to make things a little easier.

I’ve been looking around but pretty concerned as I drive an electric vehicle, which led me to the trail manor…which led to comparisons to the Hi Lo, and now I want one!

If anyone is looking to sell one, I’m in the Northeast but willing to travel.

Thank you!

Welcome to the forum. Not sure how far you would travel but here is a 31' in Marathon City, WI.

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace...0573278935837/

Thank you! I reached out to them, as well as a 29' one I saw in the area. I didn't realize the 29' was less than a foot shorter and still had 3 sleeping surfaces.

It's a bit far but if I can get enough details and comfortable with it then I can try to figure it out.

I did see the 29' posted as well. Both look pretty good in the pictures. Have fun doing the research and planning.

It looks like either one would work well for you and get you into the elite HiLo club. :)

(I would offer to go check them out for you, but they are about 3 hours from me.) I think there might be a couple of members on here that are actually live fairly close to them, but I don't know their names yet. (I just became a HiLo groupie last fall, and love it!)

Noob travel
 

I noticed you mention an electric vehicle. To tow a 29 ft. or longer you would need a 3/4 ton pick up truck. Look in the library for brochures with wts. Welcome to the forum. Also be sure to use the buyers check list for any used HiLo you are considering.

I'll be right on that border of a 1/2 to 3/4 ton.

GVWR: 8532lbs
900 ft/lb Torque
Tow Rating: 11,000lbs

Payload is a little low around 1600lbs so I'll need to go on a diet before I go on a trip.

Thank you for guiding me to the checklist!

N00B, welcome to the forum! In addition to the tow rating weight, what you REALLY have to watch out for is the tongue weight of a trailer that size. ALL of that tongue weight has to be carried by the axles, wheels and tires of your tow vehicle. A Weight Distribution Hitch (WDH) only spreads this weight out over both tow vehicle axles, it does not reduce it. In fact, adding a WDH (which you definitely need with a trailer that big) adds the weight of the WDH to your axles as well. My WDH weighs 70#, so you have to figure that in too.

I did a quick look at the listed weights of 31 ft Classics from 1998. They are 7000# and 7500#. Now, the tongue weights that are shown are only 10% of that, which is low. The ideal tongue weight should be around 12.5%, or 875# or 938# for each of these. In practice, the tongue weight can be as much as 15% of the total trailer weight, and it is usually closer to this figure.

You need to weigh your vehicle on a certified scale such as a CAT scale to determine its actual weight. I bet you will find you DO NOT have the advertised 1600# payload when you do this. Your axle weight limits are on a sticker at the driver's door. I think you have a 1/2 ton truck with that payload limit and I think a 31' trailer is too big for it.

The truck will easily "pull" the 31' trailer, but you need the suspension that a SuperDuty class vehicle gives you.

And, don't even consider air bags on the rear axles, they do not change the loading either.

I'm sorry I'm being a "Debbie Downer", but I don't want you to kill yourself or others.

- Jack

Hi Debbie Downer! I'm an Enthusiastic Eddie, which can sometimes cause issues of the head first variety. So I appreciate the feedback. I'd rather flush it out here than on the side of the road.

According to the door jamb:
GAWR Front is 4134lb
GAWR Rear is 4960lb

Edit: Doesn’t look like it’ll work. I see the 31c has an axle weight of 4830. That’s only 130lbs from the rear limit.

Thank you @jackandjanet for saving me a lot of time.

You, or I, may be misunderstanding something. If your tow vehicle has those Gross Axle Weight Ratings (GAWRs), then it would imply the Gross Vehicle Weight Rating would be around 9094#, but you said earlier that it was 8532#, which is lower and is the one that takes precedence. The difference is not unusual, my truck's GVWR is less than the sum of the axle limits too, but not by as much as yours.

The axle weight limit you see for the 31C is a limit for each of its axles, I believe, which means the trailer could have a GVWR of around 9660#. If it did, and you loaded it to that figure, then the tongue weight, which your truck has to "carry", not "pull" would be between 966# and close to 1500#. This would be the weight that would be transferred to your truck and would add to its vehicle weight or its individual axle weights.

Either way, I applaud your decision NOT to try to tow this trailer with your vehicle. As I said, it would pull it, but the truck's suspension would be overloaded.

- Jack

I’m not sure how it’s calculated or why the difference is so big, but here’s the plate I’m looking at. I have to see what’s the largest I can pull now that will have 3 sleeping surfaces.

Yup, that's the plate I was talking about. It appears they (is it Ford?) has really strengthened the rear suspension in that vehicle. My two axle limits are much closer to each other. Like you, it puzzles me that the GVWR is less than the sum of the two axle limits. Maybe an automotive engineer (if there are any) who's a member here might enlighten us.

- Jack

My take on it, which may or may not be correct is this.

You can load your front axle up 4,134 pounds. Or you can load your rear axle up to 4,960 pounds, BUT you can NOT exceed 8,532 pounds combined. So, whatever your front axle weighs in at while you are loaded, full fuel, all passengers, snacks, etc. then whatever weight is left to reach 8,532 is what you can load onto your rear axle. It gives you some flexabilty to how the vehicle is loaded, as long as you stay below the GVWR of 8,532.

When I was driving semi, I built a spreadsheet that would try to keep me under 80,000 lbs. Brokers loved to max out loads (more money for them, the same for me :(
Anyway, with the adjustable trailer axles (moving weight from trailer axles to fifth wheel and back) and adjustable fifth wheel to move weight between the steer and drive axles. With the fuel tanks mounted midway between steer and drive axles, I could make 79,990 pounds work. The pain was if I could only run with half full tanks and anymore fuel would over load the front axles, it meant more stops for fuel. (So, at an average of 7 pounds per gallon, 1 gallon could add 4 pounds to the steer and 3 pounds to the drives. 10 gallons would add 40 pounds to the steers and 30 to the drives. Consequently, 200 gallons would add 800 pounds up front and 600 pounds to the drives. And so-on and so-forth up to the 600 gallons I was capable of carrying.) That being said, I could roll across the scale and only weigh 78,000 pounds but without things balanced, I could easily be 5,000 - 10,000 over on the steers and still be under weight. The scale master would only see $$$$$$$ and that trip just became unprofitable really quickly, although if under gross they would usually let you try to "rebalance" the load and scale again. (Just a side note, I know a few truckers that would be pushing the limits and time each fuel stop after each scale. If they could roll across the scale "almost" empty of fuel, their chances of not getting stopped were much better.)

All of that to say, as Jack mentioned, your truck is more than capable to pull something heavier, but once you reach 4,960 ponds on your rear axle, you best not have more than 3,572 pounds on your front axle. (Which I wouldn't recommend either, as the front end will be light and tend to wonder.) Try to balance out the weight proportionately between front and back, and then all will be good with the world, and your ride. But, until you know what your truck weighs loaded, it is really hard to know what you can drop onto your hitch and go.

Do people run overloaded, all the time! Do they get away with it, most the time! Is it smart to roll the dice and throw caution to the wind? Only you can answer that. But it sounds like you are working on doing it the correct way, and I commend you for that.

Thank you Rahn, for that explanation. I also liked what you said in the last paragraph. I've seen way too many tow vehicles pulling trailers that I KNEW overloaded their axles and I knew they were really asking for disaster. I saw a big gooseneck with slideouts on a Toyota pickup a couple years ago at Bryce Canyon. That truck had to be bottomed out while underway.

- Jack

Overloaded?
 

Thanks Jack! Yes, you don't have to travel very far or very long to see something like this. I wonder how the trip turned out for them?

I should have circled them and got a better picture, but I didn't.

That I see all the time and I'm not looking to be one. I found a CAT scale via the locator so I'll see if I can get weighed. Do I just roll up and ask nicely?

You can. At most truck stops just park on the scale and make sure the front axles is on the front scale and the rear axle is on the second scale (2nd section). That will give you 2 weights.
Then you call them on the intercom located near your driver's door, they will weigh you, and then tell you to park and come in to get your weight ticket at the fuel desk.
I find it much easier to use the CAT app on the smart phone, works great, saves time, and you have it saved on your phone.

Either way, don't leave your truck on the scale when you walk in to get your ticket. Some truckers highly dislike waiting for your return. :)

Also, seeing where the intercom is located will help you figure out which way to pull onto the scale. (It's a little embarrassing to drive on and be facing backwards. And I have seen it done. LOL )

Yes, I think you'll find them helpful. The CAT scale I used was at a truck stop. I just went inside and told them what I wanted to do. They let me do two weighings, since I had a trailer in tow. I rolled on for the first weighing with everything hooked up (trailer on the third scale and truck on the first two). Then I drove back on and unhooked the trailer and dropped it so it was entirely on the rear scale and my unhooked truck was on the front two. This way, I was able to see exactly what weight the trailer put on each of my truck's axles, as well as the actual weight of the trailer. There were NO trucks waiting to be weighed at the time. I think it cost me $15 for each weighing. There was a speaker at the scale, so I could talk to them while there.

I found my truck weighed much more than listed, (about 6500#), which, of course reduces the load I can put on the towing hitch. And I've confirmed this weight many times at the landfill I take trash to since then.

- Jack

The perk of getting the paper copy is most CAT scales tickets have a plastic "collector's card" attached to it. Also, there is always "something" that you need in the store. :)

Also, around mid-day and mid-afternoon is a good time. Later in the day truck traffic really increases and sometimes early mornings can be busy.

Great advice Jack! I have unhooked and placed the trailer jack on scale one, and trailer axles on 2nd scale. Also doing the math as you mentioned will get the same results and easier if there is a slope leading off the scale. (Backing up a slope to rehook can be interesting.)

Here's a picture of the Toyota Tundra and the trailer it was pulling I mentioned earlier. It was in the campgrounds at Bryce Canyon, so wasn't hooked up, but I know that truck was a 1500 class truck and the trailer was much too big for it.

Rahn, I actually have a trailer tongue weight scale that I bought (a bit over $100 as I recall) when I found my trailer tongue seemed to weigh a lot more than I expected from looking in the HiLo brochure. It DID - almost 600#! This was before I had the axle moved forward about 3" to re-balance the thing and to also align the axle properly with the trailer frame. It was positioned too far to the rear and was made this way at the HiLo factory (I bought it new, in 2007).

- Jack

Yes, that would be a load on the Tundra!

I have looked at trailer tongue scales, and it really would be a good investment. That is great that you figured out your weight issue and was able to correct it. I am tossing around the idea of raising my trailer and it would be smart to make sure the tongue weight is in the ball park of correctness before welding it back together. (Even a trailer that is not level will throw the balance/weight off. Plus cause other problems.)

I have a weigh safe tow ball that I use to monitor my weights. I've never verified it but it gives me some comfort when when I would tow, but those were with small loads of typically 3000lbs or so.

Some truckers are probably going to be pissed off at me anyway while I try to figure out what to do!

Are CAT scales the only place to get weighed? I see weigh station on they interstates by me, can I pull into one of those as well?

You could do any scale really, like a private scale at a manufacturing plant, or at a recycling dump location, or something like a milk plant, if they allow it. Most don't want to be bothered (even less than truckers.) And most CAT scales at truck stops, the truckers are pretty good about it. Waiting for a 4-wheeler isn't any more time consuming than waiting for another 18-wheeler. (Usually much faster!)

I usually look for one that is pretty empty, just to stay out of their way. And smaller truck stops are less busy than the major ones near industrial parks. And mid-day most drivers are trying to cover miles to get to their next truck stop for the night and not hanging around the truck stops as much during the day. (And you would be surprised how many semis don't scale.) Plus, a lot of the drivers have onboard scales that work off the airbag systems. So they can be within a few hundred pounds or so. If they consistently run at the max weight, there is equipment that will scale all axles within a hundred pounds mounted on the truck and really no need to CAT scale it, unless they want a certified copy that they are legal.

I personally wouldn't try the scale on the interstate. If they ARE open they probably don't want to mess with it. Some of the scales do leave the scales turned on and you can scale your load when they are not present. But most interstate scales just give you, the driver, a total.

When they are open and you are over-weight they will zero down to all axle weights and ask you to come inside and they will inform you just how many pounds over you are and on what axle. But I have heard of guys being under weight totally by 4,000 - 5,000 lbs and over on an axle and they didn't stop them.

The Pre-Pass scales still amaze me, you see the overhead cameras and metal plates embedded in the traffic lanes. They are actually filming and scaling trucks at 75 mph. If you are overweight, it will trigger the signal to send you into the scale house so they can "evaluate" your situation and maybe locate any other defects.

Sorry, that was a long answer to say you will enjoy the project much more at a CAT scale compared to asking at an interstate scale.

https://catscale.com/how-to-weigh/

The easiest overall would be with the CAT app. You basically open the app, pull on the scale, enter the CAT scale number on the intercom, pay with the app, the app shows your axle weights, save, and you drive away.

Simple and quick.

Here is good video on the process.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfelG30b8hs

On the website it also explains the App in a video on the CAT homepage.

Here is the app video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsoV8pE99Yc

Rahn, when I had my axle moved forward, where it should have been, the folks at the welding shop where I had this done also suggested placing a 1-1/2" spacer between the frame and the axle support, to raise my trailer by that amount. I accepted this idea and in doing so, am now able to mount larger, 225/75-R15 tires, which gives me an additional 1/2" of clearance. They also have a higher load carrying capacity and because they rotate slower, they run cooler. I felt pretty confident in their work, they had a Tucson fire truck in for work at the time.

I have a thread on this that I posted back in about 2008 as I recall. Welding is something I don't have the equipment or skill to perform, so I let the pros do it.

- Jack

Ok so I didn't watch ANY of the videos. So that was smart of me.

I rolled up in between what felt like 50 semi's. Kept my distance in case any of them were trying to back into a spot and just followed the floor arrows that said "SCALE".

There were two Semis in front of me and they took roughly...1 min? I tried to pull up as far as possible to not be in anyone's way. When it was my turn I was hoping there would be obvious spots for the plates but it was a flat piece of concrete with several yellow lines. I figured I'd just put my two axles two different parts of the yellow lines and pray it was correct.

Entered the intercom # into the app, waited for what felt like an hour as I wondered if I did it correctly and my numbers flashed on screen on the app. I rushed to drive away so I wasn't in the way and the numbers disappeared which freaked me out because I couldn't see it on the app anymore. But they ended up emailing me a copy.

Anyways...
Front: 3700lbs (is it weird that it was exact?)
Rear: 3480lbs
Gross: 7180lbs

It's slightly wet outside as it's snowing so I might be +/- depending on whether but that gives me a good idea to work off.

It seems I've got an actual payload of 1352lbs with me inside which doesn't seem too terrible. Unfortunately I don't know what my wife weighs and value my health enough to not take a guess. So let's just say my wife and our children weigh a total of 352lbs just for ease of calculation. That would leave me roughly 1000lbs on the tongue, factor in a 15% safety buffer to say I can carry 850lbs on the tongue - based on GVWR.

Now for the axle...

4960lb rating - 3480 weighed = 1480lbs. That would mean my limit would be the GVWR and not the Rear GAWR right? So this almost becomes irrelevant.

Am I doing this correctly so far?

Going back to your original post..

That means while technically doable, I would be doing so w/o any buffer.

That said, question for the group. Does anyone know why the 31c and the 29c are both listed at the same weights? That seems a little odd to me. This also means I'm likely looking for a 24C or 25C at this point. I found a 2211T with a bunk nearby for $5,000 but I can't seem to find much info on the 2011's

N00B, your thinking is correct regarding the weight limit, but you also have to factor in any luggage you might put in your tow vehicle, as well as a WDH, which again, I say, you need, because you want to distribute the weight of the trailer tongue relatively evenly over your tow vehicle's axles, so that proper handling is maintained. This can be a bit of a trick, because you also want the trailer to ride level, especially if it has tandem axles, or you can overload one of the trailer's axles or, increase/decrease the tongue weight to a value that is not right for towing. Again, a WDH will allow you to set this up properly.

My trailer weighs much more than the brochure says it should, and this is not caused by me putting things in it. Most people who have weighed their trailers find this to be the case. If I fill my cold water tank, and have two full propane bottles, my trailer weighs right at the GVWR limit. I don't fill the cold water tank when towing as a result.

I think a 24' trailer would be a pretty good choice and I also think there are ones that could hold your family. You DO have a higher tongue limit than I do, with the higher GVWR in your truck. My GVWR is about 7200#.

- Jack

Oh, definitely with a WDH. The manual specifically states the tow limit is 11,000 with a WDH and only 5,000 w/o one. So w/o one I would actually be even further limited.

I did get another data point yesterday on the truck forums. It looks like they threw the truck with a 25ft Airstream, partial tanks filled and WDH on the CAT and came back with 3560FR / 4680RR / 5580TA. Obviously a very different trailer and I have no idea what the weights are on it but it was a good data point to have.

Either way, thank you for steering me away from the 33 and 31. Time to regroup to evaluate spec sheets..

N00B, your thinking is correct regarding the weight limit, and Jack did an excellent job explaining everything.
As Jack mentioned, don't forget to factor in everything. As in anything you plan to put in your truck box, i.e. bicycles, chairs, coolers, leveling boards, etc. as well as the distribution hitch (that could be 100# or more depending on the quality and complexity.

Good job on the scale, that will really help you pinpoint your objective target and goal!

I see you replied while I was typing this, enjoy the journey! Sound like you are on the right road!

Thanks for the idea and information Jack. I know I want to raise my axle, and I hadn't really thought about the possibility of it being off a little bit on the frame. I guess I will get the interior rehab completed and then weigh the tongue and go from there. I figure I will be raising it a minimum of 1.5" and a max of 3".

I wouldn't raise it too much. Doing so will increase the wind drag and will raise the Center of Gravity (CG) too. That will make it more "tippable", as well as increasing the hit on your gas mileage. 1.5" with the larger tires on mine seemed perfect. Since you have tandem axles you have to worry about tire spacing between each of them on a side if you DO want to put on larger tires. Possibly, an axle could be moved without moving the other one to increase the spacing? And, just like with a car or truck, raising the box doesn't change the axle clearance. (But it makes it easier to crawl under it, and gives better clearance for the waste pipe.)

- Jack

I did it...

I jumped head first into a pool without checking the depth or taking the time to learn how to swim...

I just pulled the trigger on a 25c and made a KoA reservation. I've got 45 days to learn as much as possible so I don't mess this up lol.

Try to camp close to home on your first try. It will help when you find all the things you wish you had brought, but didn't. And, if there's a problem, you won't be so far away either.

- Jack

That's some good advice. It's overwhelming the amount of supplies I need. We'll be sleeping in it for a night next weekend in the driveway. No hookups but to get a sense of what it's like and what it feels like.

Ordered X chocks today, grabbed some rubber ground chocks as well. Got a surge protector, sewer hose, fresh water hose w/ pressure regulator. I still need to pick up some leveling blocks for the jack, wheels, and stabilizers.

When I picked her up the ride back was a bit hairy, no CAT scales nearby. It had a WDH but it was tough to get dialed in. My truck has an air suspension and it messed with my measurements as it kept leveling.

I got home and threw the trailer on a scale and I think I found out why, the tongue came in at just shy of 600lbs, I had less than 10% on the tongue. Empty water tank but full propane tanks. Surprisingly 600lbs is what the 2008 manual has the 25c at as well.

When it warms up I'll take her with some water to the scales but factoring in people and assuming no water, I've got about 300lbs of capacity left. Considering the 31c specs had the tongue at 890lbs...thank you again Jack for steering me away from it. More than that, my wife thanks you for steering us towards a model that had a full rear bath. It's by far her favorite part of the trailer.

I'm delighted I was able to help, N00B. I think your idea of camping in the driveway is spot-on! You will learn a whole bunch of things that way and will be able to do something about them.

Your tongue weight should be approximately 12.5% of the total weight of the trailer to make it ideal. Too little and you'll get sway, which is VERY dangerous.

You also want the trailer to ride "level" when you're towing it. This puts equal weight on each of the trailer's axles so that you don't overload them. If the trailer is "nose high", the trailer's rear axle is carrying more of the weight and you are increasing your tongue weight. If the trailer is "nose low", your front trailer axle is carrying more weight and your tongue weight is reduced.

If you can disable your truck's air suspension when you try to set up your WDH, that would be good. Having air springs tends to give a misleading idea of the weight that each of your truck's axles is carrying and, they can make leveling your trailer difficult too.

I'll say that if your have your WDH set up properly, you will NOT notice any difference in steering when towing compared to driving your truck and not towing. If the WDH is not set up right, the truck will seem to have it's alignment out of spec. This takes a bit of trial and error to get right, I've found. My truck tracks perfectly now, but it took quite a bit of "fiddling" to get it that way. As I recall, I had my towing ball too high at first.

- Jack