2007 23C Rebuild - Page 2 - Hi-Lo camper travel trailer forum

RahnA · 01-19-2024, 09:26 AM

I have a couple questions for you Leland.

Did you cover the 4x4 underside and backside with flashing like the original build, or did you just leave it painted? I can see where flashing it could protect it, but I can also see where leaving it open and to the air would allow the beam to air/dry?

Did you paint the aluminum frame with anything special, or just something basic like Rust-Oleum?

And, the brackets that you placed on the rail to the beam (see picture.) Did you notch the outer luan/plywood panel to keep a flat surface for the fiberglass/Filon? Or did you just go over the top of the brackets with everything?

Speaking of those brackets, would a few screws though the aluminum frame into the beam, both vertically and horizontally hold the frame from twisting in lieu of the brackets? (I can also see where the brackets would be more robust, just thinking out loud.)

Thanks!

r67northern · 01-19-2024, 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RahnA

....
At some point it seemed very evident that the roof wasn’t currently fastened to the wall, and neither was the backend after I removed the cap. Luckily the thought came to me before I pulled the front cap off, that there would be very little support holding everything up. I braced up the ceiling, and what was left of the right side wall came off the camper. Now I can work on this section, get it squared up and attach all the hard-to-get-to things.

It seems like a win for me, but we will see.

Wow, that's great that you got the sides off like that. It will make reattaching and gluing more secure. I'll call it a win too.

r67northern · 01-19-2024, 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RahnA

I have a couple questions for you Leland.

Did you cover the 4x4 underside and backside with flashing like the original build, or did you just leave it painted? I can see where flashing it could protect it, but I can also see where leaving it open and to the air would allow the beam to air/dry?

Did you paint the aluminum frame with anything special, or just something basic like Rust-Oleum?

And, the brackets that you placed on the rail to the beam (see picture.) Did you notch the outer luan/plywood panel to keep a flat surface for the fiberglass/Filon? Or did you just go over the top of the brackets with everything?

Speaking of those brackets, would a few screws though the aluminum frame into the beam, both vertically and horizontally hold the frame from twisting in lieu of the brackets? (I can also see where the brackets would be more robust, just thinking out loud.)

Thanks!

Let's see what I can recall here for you:

Flashing:
The bottom (on all sides actually) I covered over with the same type of material I used on the roof:
https://www.homedepot.com/p/USEAL-US...2AF6/202086180

The roof had much wider strips of it in white that rolled on, but the basic idea is thin layer of aluminum on the outside, tar-like glue on the underside. It's held pretty well and I liked that there was no "space" or gap between the cover and beam anymore. Obviously, it's not as durable to getting a rock thrown up at it so it becomes a routine maintenance item to check over and add a bit of tape as needed. So far so good on it though if you want to try something really different:

IMGP4118 by Lineswest, on Flickr

and

IMGP4109 by Lineswest, on Flickr

I was a bit concerned about the idea of letting it dry vs. not. So far it seems to be doing fine though from what I see of it looking down from inside on it.

Rust:
I did a bit of sanding on things that needed it, and then painted with rust-stop and rustoleum. The 1x1" frame members that I've got on the 2000 are steel though so if yours are aluminum there could be a better choice. Not sure.

Brackets / notching
When I added the outer fiberglass / luan composite back on the wall, you're right that it needed a bit of notching to fit over things smoothly. I also had the problem of the bolts that I had added to fully set the 4x4 with the frame member that it was assisting. So I got out the dremel and sanded (slowly) the areas of the luan that would have to seat over any of the protruding bolts and such. With it sanded 'just' to the underside of the outer fiberglass, it fits over the protrusions without any objection. Worked great.

And my thought on the twisting: you can see that I've got those bolts holding it to the 4x4:

IMGP3275 by Lineswest, on Flickr

Sorry it's not a better picture. 100% zoom shows them going through the beam on the bottom into that new 4x4. The brackets there at the back are also helping the routing of the cable and it's tendency to gouge and twist.

But the added structure of that 4x4 makes twisting it all pretty hard. You can also see that I've added my own sets of 1x1" boards in those pictures to help fill in some of the empty spaces where I felt like more structure would be better. Partly for twist, partly just because I knew my new wall wouldn't be as sound or stiff as the original vacuum-sealed and glued original. Looking back, I wish I would have added a couple more!

Hope that all helps.

RahnA · 01-20-2024, 08:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by r67northern

Let's see what I can recall here for you:

Hope that all helps.

Thanks for all the information! I hadn’t thought about using something like USeal on the bottom rail. A very interesting idea and I may just use that.

Yes, my two long wall frames are aluminum. Not sure how i feel about that, I haven’t done the math to see how much weight that saves me, but I do have to be more conscience about dissimilar metals including the screws I use.

You are doing really good recalling the work you did 7 years ago, and I appreciate it! Thanks for the ideas and pointers!

Rahn

r67northern · 01-20-2024, 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RahnA

Thanks for all the information! I hadn’t thought about using something like USeal on the bottom rail. A very interesting idea and I may just use that.

Yes, my two long wall frames are aluminum. Not sure how i feel about that, I haven’t done the math to see how much weight that saves me, but I do have to be more conscience about dissimilar metals including the screws I use.

You are doing really good recalling the work you did 7 years ago, and I appreciate it! Thanks for the ideas and pointers!

Rahn

Thanks, I'm doing the best I can to remember - some of it's seared in my mind I guess!

Some of the things that I like about the USeal are that it "self seals" and there's no long beads of caulk that have to done as they did with the original aluminum covers. It's easier to fix up dings or other problems on it as well ... but ... it doesn't look quite as "clean" as the original and it is a maintenance item. I haven't driven it through anything like a hurricane yet to confirm it holds, but I can't imagine it wouldn't make it just fine. I did put some beads of caulk down on some of the seams in it just to make especially sure I was giving everything the bets shot I could.

As for screws: good thinking on this. I bit the bullet and went stainless square-head on everything I could (except for a few places that ended up being wood - to - wood attachments). I believe Grainger was my preferred supplyer for 3/4" stainless screws. I was in no mood to go back and have to redo stuff later because it accidentally got wet and there was corrosion because of the screw types.

Keep up the good work, you've got a nice looking shop to go after this thing with. I like it!

RahnA · 01-22-2024, 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by r67northern

Keep up the good work, you've got a nice looking shop to go after this thing with. I like it!

Thanks! We really like the shop as well. I built it in the fall of 2022, insulated, wired, and finished the interior this past summer (paying for materials as I go.)
At 10’ ceiling height I can raise the camper roof to full height with a few inches to spare. I would have liked to have went with 12’ ceilings but that added a few thousand dollars, and would take a little more heat to warm it. I also would have loved to put in-floor heat, but that too added another chunk of money to the build.

I heat it with our outdoor wood stove, one set of water lines run to the house and the second set runs to the shop. (The stove is about halfway in-between the two.) The stove maintains (as long as I feed it) 160* to 170* water temp. With the outdoor temps between 5* to 30* I can fill the wood box up with hardwood and get 15-17 hours of burn time. When it is colder, like 10* on into the negative numbers, I will get a solid 12 hours on a fill.

The stove has a blower on it, when the water temp reaches 160* the blower damper opens up and kicks on and the fire is like a blacksmith’s forge. Once the water temp reaches 170* the blower kicks off and the damper cap closes and the stove is starved of oxygen and just sits there barely burning. Once the water temp reaches 160* again the whole process starts over.

In the shop, when I leave for the evening, I open a by-pass valve totally and close the valve to the heater about 3/4. That little bit of water passing through the heater will keep the shop around 50*-55* (depending on the outside temps.) When I get ready to work out there, I open the valve to the heater and close the bypass valve. It will raise the temp to mid 60’s, if I kick on the blower, in about 20-30 minutes. Once the temperature is mid 60’s the blower shuts off and it will maintain that temp with just the water passing through the heater.

Last year, heating just the house, I burnt 10 cord of hardwood. (The picture of the log truck has about 10 cord on it. It was a cold winter, started heating around Thanksgiving and shut it down in late March or early April. This year I bought 12 cord and I currently have about 6 cord right now. I buy the wood in 8’ lengths (standard log truck length) and cut it up into 2’ pieces. Saw mills buy the trunks of trees for making boards and such, I get the tops (or small trees) which are typically 6” to 8” thick. I only have to split maybe 1/4 of a load which are pieces larger than 10". Everything smaller I can get into the stove, anything larger is a struggle. For instance, 8” pieces, I can get 6 maybe 8 into the firebox.

A few years ago, I was the Director of Maintenance at a school/campus near here. We had 9 wood burning stoves that would take a 4’ long logs. (Only had to cut the 8 footers in half to use.) They are heating 17 buildings with the stoves. They could easily last 12+ hours on a fill, but they were tough to load. The school has about 500 acres of woods and part if the wood burnt came from forestry programs such as thinning and dead tree removal. The rest of the wood was brought in by log trucks. Very labor intense, but it is a renewable resource. Also the stoves have re-circulators and afterburners so the smoke is almost non-existent.

Probably more info than you were looking for, but for people that have never had any experience with something like this, it will broaden their horizon.

97towlite · 01-22-2024, 02:18 PM

Hi RahnA,

Thanks for sharing your rebuild. I have a 2000 that I am about to start on and had a question about how the side walls were attached to the roof and ends. I noticed in the photos that you were able to remove the framework of the wall from the roof section. Can you elaborate on how it was attached or have any photos of how it was joined? I would like to remove my sidewall whole if possible rather than having to tear it down to the bare frame to remove it. Any advise or direction you can provide would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks again for your help!

RahnA · 01-22-2024, 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 97towlite

Hi RahnA,

Thanks for sharing your rebuild. I have a 2000 that I am about to start on and had a question about how the side walls were attached to the roof and ends. I noticed in the photos that you were able to remove the framework of the wall from the roof section. Can you elaborate on how it was attached or have any photos of how it was joined? I would like to remove my sidewall whole if possible rather than having to tear it down to the bare frame to remove it. Any advise or direction you can provide would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks again for your help!

Yes, I can tell you what I have come across, yours maybe a little different. My wall frame is aluminum 1” square tubing and I think your wall frame may be steel 1” square tubing. (It will be interesting to see if you do have steel or not.)

I am amazed at the simplicity of the complete build. Once I took the drip edge off the upper wall roof area and pealed the aluminum roof edge up and radius curve up, it was then only fastened at each end. When I removed the rear fiberglass cap, the sidewall was just sandwiched between the cap and the end wall. All that was left was the front cap. I decided not to remove the front cap yet since that was all that was keeping the roof and sidewalls square and from leaning over. I just took the saws-all and cut between the front cap and the side wall to release any adhesive holding them together.

I had an advantage of being able to also run the saws-all down the backside of the side wall and front wall. Not sure if I needed to, but I did.

The only other thing is to remove the guide blocks on the side walls. Mine came off on disassembly, you may decide to reach up from below to cut the screws off of them, if you can’t get the screws out any other way. They will probably have to be removed since you will probably have to rock the back and forth to get freed up.

So, to recap this. Take all the screws out of the drip edge and remove, and the screws from both front and rear end caps. Look under the roofing material at the roof radius to remove any extra screws (I think they put a few in the wall to hold it before they installed the roof.) Once all the screws are out you should have it.

On my build, the roof bows just set on the side walls. The roof radius is welded to the bows on top the roof and then screws hold the lower part of the radius to the sidewall.

If you want any other specific pictures or questions, just ask and I will do my best to help you out. I will get a couple of pictures of what you asked for shortly.

RahnA · 01-22-2024, 04:09 PM

Originally Posted by 97towlite
Hi RahnA,

Thanks for sharing your rebuild. I have a 2000 that I am about to start on and had a question about how the side walls were attached to the roof and ends. I noticed in the photos that you were able to remove the framework of the wall from the roof section. Can you elaborate on how it was attached or have any photos of how it was joined?

Here are the pictures for you. Hope they help.

97towlite · 01-22-2024, 04:33 PM

Thank you for the excellent photos and comments! Is there a perimeter tube frame for the roof that attaches along the top of the wall also? It appears in the photos that the roof ribs are cut at an angle to accommodate the rounded roof edge and these sit on the top of the wall with no full tube frame around the roof. Is that correct? Are there any screws in the roof ribs into the top of the side wall frame?

Thanks again for the excellent photos!!

RahnA · 01-22-2024, 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 97towlite

Thank you for the excellent photos and comments! Is there a perimeter tube frame for the roof that attaches along the top of the wall also? It appears in the photos that the roof ribs are cut at an angle to accommodate the rounded roof edge and these sit on the top of the wall with no full tube frame around the roof. Is that correct? Are there any screws in the roof ribs into the top of the side wall frame?

Thanks again for the excellent photos!!

Good observation! No, the only thing holding the roof bows/frame to the side walls (on mine anyway) are the screws through the radius steel into the sidewall frame. Once the radius screws are removed, The roof is floating on the side wall.

It was: (starting from the sidewall frame moving outward) aluminum 1” tube frame, 1/8” plywood, outer fiberglass wall siding, steel radius curve, tape/paper barrier, aluminum roof edge, aluminum drip edge track.

Not sure if you saw the post above the picture post, but maybe this will help explain it better.

JackandJanet · 01-22-2024, 09:53 PM

Rahn and Leland - I've just "stuck" both your rebuild threads, because I think they contain information that is going to be of great benefit to other members, especially now that J&R has closed up shop and we're pretty much on our own regarding trailer repair.

- Jack

sam · 01-22-2024, 10:10 PM

RahnA,Loved the pictures and explination on your shop and house heating system. Thanks for the great rebuild pictures and information. As Jack mentioned it will be useful for others as we are on our own. Always ready to cheer you on. M y dad was the head of maintenance for a private school. He also worked for a public school. Seems like you will be ready for camping this spring.

97towlite · 01-23-2024, 07:58 AM

RahnA - Thanks for the additional description. It makes sense now! I will be starting mine this spring and your photos will be a great resource. Will you be sharing an entire album when you finish? Looking forward to watching your progress and learning more for my project.

Thanks Again!

r67northern · 01-23-2024, 09:35 AM

Thanks Jack - that’s great. As a plug for what Rahn is up to here, his rebuild is taking it even further down a bit than where I stopped. This should turn out really nice.

RahnA · 01-23-2024, 09:59 AM

Thank you everyone for the encouragement. Hopefully I won’t stray off topic too many times as I keep you updated with my progress, or some days, lack of progress.

Stay tuned, same bat time, same bat channel

sam · 01-23-2024, 03:18 PM

Winter is a slow time on this forum. Off topic is okay. Keep the posts coming.

r67northern · 01-26-2024, 03:58 PM

Yep, winter slows down a lot of projects. And I appreciated the insight into the wood burning, very nice.

RahnA · 01-27-2024, 09:04 AM

Last couple of days were spent cleaning the aluminum wall frame of all the old glue and corrosion from rusted screws. It is cleaning up nicely but sure makes a mess! Almost ready to start reassembling the wall.

Also started measuring out the 4x4 that will be fastened full length to the bottom rail. The original 2x4 is sitting on top the new part. It was surprising that beyond the 2x4, in the original build, was a really just a light piece of aluminum tubing and some rotten, delaminated, damp, 3/4” plywood. Not much wonder the wall was twisting when the cable lifted it.

r67northern · 01-27-2024, 03:50 PM

Quote:

It was surprising that beyond the 2x4, in the original build, was a really just a light piece of aluminum tubing and some rotten, delaminated, damp, 3/4” plywood. Not much wonder the wall was twisting when the cable lifted it.

Yes - I was surprised frequently at how things were put together. I understand a lot of it was done in the name of weight savings .... but cost savings show through too. I'm sure these HiLos aren't the only trailers to take cost savings into account though. Any 15 year old (10 year old?) trailers usually seem pretty worn and beat up, if you can find them at all. That speaks to the general build quality and materials.